B Lab Forces For Good Podcast — Episode 8: How can workers share in the prosperity they help create?

Without workers, there is no business. So why are they so often left out of ownership, decision-making, and prosperity? Our newest episode of Forces For Good is all about flipping that script.

We hear from Julian McKinley, Co-Executive Director for Partnerships and Growth at the Democracy at Work Institute, whose work with worker co-ops is helping people escape exploitative conditions and build businesses that belong to them. We also talk to B Corp NatureSweet CEO Rodolfo Spielmann and Sustainability Officer Fernanda Suarez, who share how their company is transforming the agricultural industry by investing deeply in the people who make it thrive — from living wages to leadership development to mental health care.

Listen now to explore:

• Why worker ownership is gaining momentum — and who it’s helping most

• How one produce company is rewriting the rules of what a “good job” looks like

• The connection between economic democracy, personal dignity, and thriving communities

Tune in to Forces For Good to reimagine what the future of work can look like: https://lnk.to/Forces-For-Good-Shared-Prosperity 

TRANSCRIPT: Season 3 — Episode 8: How can workers share in the prosperity they help create?   

This is Forces For Good, a podcast from B Lab, the nonprofit network powering the global B Corp movement. I’m your host Irving Chan-Gomez.

Forces For Good takes a hard look at how businesses are helping to solve the biggest social and environmental challenges of our time. 

We're excited to be back with season 3 to dive deep into what makes a good job. Have you seen the social media trend of sharing your 5-9 after your 9-5? It means sharing your second job or 'side hustle.' There's nothing wrong with being entrepreneurial. But when did holding down multiple jobs become a fact of life? Should hustle culture be the default solution for wages not keeping up with rising costs? Today we're going to look at two alternatives to hustle culture that prioritize people! First we'll talk about worker cooperatives or co-ops. Then we'll look at a traditionally structured business that believes in shared prosperity with their workers. 

Both parts show that to have a thriving business you need a thriving workforce! Ok let's keep grinding…

Julian McKinley: It really starts with the question. Workers benefiting from the value that they're creating for the company that they're working for. 

That's Julian McKinley, Co-Executive Director for Partnerships and Growth at the Democracy at Work Institute . They exist to support worker cooperatives. You might have heard of a grocery store co-op or a housing co-op. 

That model can also apply to a business. A co-op is simply a group of people coming together democratically to fulfill a need. For the purpose of this episode those people are workers. This isn't just a job for Julian. It's a part of his purpose. 

Julian: It's really been, I think, a professional home for me and certainly connected to my passion for economic justice for putting good jobs and ownership in the hands of the workers who are most vulnerable in our communities and really creating the change that we, I think we want to see in the world in terms of access to good jobs, assets, access to good wages and access to, you know, better living standards generally. 

Generally, workers in a co-op have better working conditions, higher wages and more power. That's because they're part owners. It's another alternative ownership model similar to those we talked about in our last episode. So could more co-ops be the solution to hustle culture? It certainly lets the people who drive profits get a fair piece of them. 

Julian: The question becomes, you know, how much profit are those. Employees creating versus how much are they benefiting material from their profit? Is it a one to one? We know that the answer is no. One of the things that we look at is the top to bottom pay ratio. And so we know for the top corporations in the country, in the United States, that that top to bottom ratio looks like it's, it's around one to 350. And so the CEOs are making 350 times more than the lowest workers. In worker cooperatives, that top to bottom ratio is one to two.

I think it's important to note when workers have more of a say in their business and when they're able to directly contribute and benefit from the profits that they're creating, you see the top to bottom ratios level out a little bit because I think you tend to value the contributions of everyone in your business a little bit more.

There isn’t just one path to shared prosperity but worker cooperatives are definitely becoming more popular. Splice cooperative together. 

Julian: 10, 15 years ago, basically, most people were using the worker cooperative business model to escape the mainstream economy. They were looking for a way to get out of mainstream capitalism and find essentially a business utopia that they'd be able to run on their own. What we've seen over the past 10 years is a shift towards workers who are using the worker cooperative model out of necessity. They are using the model to access the mainstream economy that they have otherwise been locked out of and a specific example of that is here in New York. We have a good number of home cleaning cooperatives and these are businesses that typically the workers have been vulnerable to wage theft. They are vulnerable to precarious working conditions and workers have come and created their own businesses through worker cooperatives and have established things like better pay. So no longer are they vulnerable to wage theft. All of the large percentage of the wages are no longer going to larger companies and they're able to make a living wage that way. Also, they're able to do things like say, we're not going to work with harmful chemicals that are going to not only put our health in jeopardy, but then those chemicals are coming home with us on our, in our clothes and back to our homes and maybe putting our children in jeopardy as well.

So this model is clearly awesome. It does so much more than provide a paycheck. It protects workers, and empowers them. But how are people who could benefit from this model supposed to learn about it and form a collective? Organizations like Julian's and others help vulnerable workers form co-ops, and the benefits have a ripple effect! 

Julian: An organization called the Center for Family Life that's located in Brooklyn have specifically started a few of these home cleaning cooperative businesses. And so one of the impacts from a community level and a family level that they've been able to share is that you have women now and families who become economically empowered and that completely changes the dynamics in the families for a woman from immigrant family to be able to then take their family out to dinner to have their children sort of see their mother, if you will, as not just a breadwinner, but someone who is contributing at multiple levels. And again, it changes family dynamics and then those individuals also are more empowered to contribute at the community level. And so we've seen those workers in home care businesses really not just think about what does my voice mean within my business, but then what is the power of my voice in my community?

Once again, it's like Maslow's Hierarchy of needs that we talked about in our first episode! Once we have the security of a good job, we can aspire to other goals and levels.

Julian: We did a study a few years ago with the University of Wisconsin. It was the first study on individuals within worker cooperatives, and it took a look at what is the impact of worker ownership on the experience of individuals within worker co-ops in comparison to their workplace experience before they were working within a cooperative and one of the big questions that we asked and we begin to see a couple of hints towards it is that workers and worker cooperatives are more likely to be active in their communities.

They're more likely to attend protests or demonstrations. They're more likely to vote, the numbers actually between general elections and midterm elections for worker cooperative members and the general population were drastically different, particularly for the midterm elections.

Worker cooperative members are much more likely to vote in midterm elections, which to us says that they understand the power of their voice. And we know that, you know, midterm election participation it's low at best. It leaves a lot to be desired, right? But these workers really are able to see that, again, my voice matters. And when I come to the table and exercise my democratic rights it really can make a difference. And that's something that's not just shown by, it's not made possible just by the opportunity to vote. I think it's also made possible by the fact that these are workers who are practicing and building muscles to participate in democracy on a daily basis.

And so the idea that democracy isn't something that just shows up every 4 years and we go and we vote and it's a, you know, it's a zero sum game where we either win or we lose, but it's made up of processes where we are having discussions together. We are listening to each other and understanding different viewpoints and coming to a conclusion that everyone is tied to and so building those muscles, those democratic muscles, if you will, is something that we're able to see as an outcome of democratic workplace participation.

Not every business can turn to an alternative ownership model at this time. But every business can respect and value their employees. Many businesses, including B Corps, operate with traditional ownership models. We're going to take a look at B Corp Naturesweet. You've probably seen their brightly colored packaging in the produce section of your local grocery stores. They sell tomatoes, cucumbers, and peppers. They believe in shared prosperity. When their employees thrive, so does the business. Here's Rodolfo Spielmann. CEO and President of Naturesweet. 

Rodolfo: The company's based on the premise that by having the best people, We're going to have the best product by having the best product. We can have a brand, but having the best product with a brand, you can charge a premium in the market. So very, very simple.

The agricultural industry is ripe for exploitation. Turnover is high, wages are often low, and workers aren't always highly educated. But NatureSweet stands out. Their experienced workers have the green thumbs most of us can only dream of. 

Rodolfo: So think about someone growing a tomato, harvesting a tomato, et cetera. I've tried that in my house and I'm completely unable to get anything that is roughly palatable. So imagine when you are buying the tomatoes, you have people who have been on average again, seven years doing that in the same place, knowing what they're doing. When you compare that with the industry, in which someone is in and out in a week, that gives you a pretty big difference on why our products are so much better than the one from competition. So at the end of the day, the reason why we have the business is to transform the lives of agricultural workers in North America.

Flip over the lid of any NatureSweet grape tomato package and you'll see the name and picture of one of the employees who helped grow those tomatoes. Maybe it's Paco Herrera in maintenance or Gloria Vargas, food safety specialist. Customers can scan the QR code next to the picture to learn more. Naturesweet's Sustainability and Social Impact Officer, Fernanda Suarez  believes that a good job can transform your life.

Fernanda: I see the job as a way to transform your life. It's not just earning money, but also how you can develop yourself. And I think this is one of the most important things for me, that I'm looking and seeing in real life in nature, see that we can see the transformation in a DP way with our workers, but also in our own experience. So I think the holistic approach of the human being and how the job can give you the opportunity to thrive in life and not just work. If you can do more as a human.

So all of this commitment to your workers is cool to talk about. Dedicated pages on the website, pictures on packaging and beautifully worded philosophies. But what does this all look like in practice? 

Rodolfo: What we do is we enable people to transform their own lives. So we are not forcing anybody to do anything. And if you want to transform your life, we're giving you a choice. Every tool in the toolbox is able to do that. So that is super, super important. I'm not trying to preach a religion or anything like that. This is all about, hey, I'm giving you a chance. That's the whole idea. As a company, we're giving you an opportunity. So that's super important to understand.

Now, on average, we'll pay 40 percent above the median of the market. So this model is really working, and again, our associates are the ones deciding what to do with it. So then, by the way, we go, as I said, this is the first part, this is about income, which is tremendously important.

So then we measure transformational income, which is the idea of going beyond the bottom of the pyramid. Now, do you own your house? Yes. Can you buy a vehicle? Can you take vacations? And that's another 25%. And we're measuring ourselves. By the way, we hold ourselves accountable and make sure that we are hitting the KPIs in the campaign.

Money is important. And let's be clear when you're talking about food, shelter is very, very important. But we're not just about that. We're talking about personal development and we have programs, not only about education, but we have programs of helping associates become better parents.

How, by the way, we're teaching communities how to become better families in the communities. So it goes well beyond just the money. And again, the money is important, please don't ever disregard that. But it goes to the commitment of I care for you as a human being. That means that we have psychologists in every plant, we have doctors in every plant. So if you have a problem, we're here for you. We have surveys every year to every single associate. To understand how they're feeling all the stress levels that they are, and then we act in the service. So that's what I said is the base of the pyramid. You absolutely need to know. So, nobody will care about my personal fulfillment, if they have no nothing to eat.

Open communication between employees and employers is vital! NatureSweet uses their union as a partner in helping them stay connected to the voices of their workers. 

Rodolfo: By the way, 100 percent of our base associates in Mexico belong to a union. So it's not the vast majority, it's 100%. So everything we do, we do consult with the union. We have a good relationship with the union. They obviously, they stand up for us and they, they push for the things that they believe need to happen. Bye guys. One of the leaders of the union told me one day, Hey, if every company would be like NatureSweet, my life would be a bit easier because I, again, our people are treated very well here.

Soooo what does this all mean for the business at Naturesweet? We told you that when workers thrive, businesses thrive. So what does a thriving greenhouse look like? 

Rodolfo: When you enter, you will see associates, their associates are taking notes and making sure that the densities are correct and we're taking all the data. And when you're running several hundred hectares. You need data to understand what's going on and what things need to be adjusted. But then you will have associates who are going to be harvesting and they have a card where they're moving the card and they're putting the fruit inside.

That's very interesting because that also requires, you're like, oh, harvesting. They need to know what color they're supposed to be harvesting, what fruits to touch, what not to touch. Again, it really requires understanding. Also, you will have a sausage, a couple, two or three per greenhouse that will be in stilts.

Tying the plants on the top and moving them because a tomato plant, when it starts growing, it keeps growing. And always the greenhouses might have three, four, five, six meters to the top, but the plant will grow 20, 30. So at the day, you need to start tying the plant, moving it down, Doing all that work, you have associates doing that.

So you have, as Fern mentioned before, every one of them very focused by working together. You'll see a lot of jokes among them. And what I love is once the greenhouse is operating, which lets say 25-30 weeks, roughly the group of associates remain the same. So that's their greenhouse. And they take care of their greenhouse, which is super important because at the end of the day, the productivity bonuses come related to how good the greenhouse is.

So they want to make sure they treat it well from the very beginning. So it becomes productive until the end. So that's a little bit of what you will be seeing when you enter one of the greenhouses. And you will see, obviously, the carts full of products. By the way, if you ever try a tomato right out of the vine, it's just out of this world good.

This sounds like highly skilled labor to me. These agricultural workers have purpose and passion. They're feeding the world!

Fernanda: I wanted to highlight the passion of the associates when they are doing their job because they are like very focused on the plants and the activities and they take care of the plant, like some of them say, like my babies, you know, because it is something that is alive and This is one of the things that I'm most surprised, like the commitment that they have taking care of the plants and just seeing this, not just like, I need to do this activity, I'm taking care.

And that's the amazing thing when you go to the greenhouses and see them, how they work and the passion they put in everything that they are doing is like inspirational for me. 

And I will add just one thing because they have music in the greenhouses, but sometimes they are just singing very funny and they are just enjoying the time. And I think this is also why the plants are receiving because they are just singing to plan and they look like they are happy when they are working there.

It definitely reminds me of my mom talking to their plants and saying that she needs to do it for the plants to be happy. 

I think the benefits of a flourishing workforce are clear here. Much like you have to take care of a plant if you want it to grow, you've got to take care of your workers. No matter the business model or ownership structure, a business shares prosperity with the people who make it run. As a business owner, you don't want workers who are burnt out from second or third jobs. And as a worker, you deserve purpose, prosperity and power. 

If you’d like to learn more about B Corps and purpose-driven companies, visit BCorporation.net. Subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your support helps Forces for Good reach new audiences.

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The views and opinions expressed are those of the interviewees and do not reflect the positions or opinions of the producers or any affiliated organizations.

This podcast was brought to you by B Lab in partnership with The Gates Foundation. Special thanks to Sherri Jordan for coordination. Forces For Good is produced by Hueman Group Media.

I’m your host, Irving Chan-Gomez. Thanks for listening, and see you next time!