Forces For Good Podcast Season 4 — Episode 4: How can seaweed help us rethink the value of nature?

What if the most powerful climate solutions aren’t futuristic inventions, but already growing in our oceans?

In the latest episode of Forces for Good, we spotlight Notpla, the B Corp turning seaweed into waste-free packaging that disappears like an orange peel. From the London Marathon to major sports venues, they're proving that nature already designed the perfect alternative to plastic; we just needed to look.

But innovation alone isn’t enough. Bosco Lliso of the World Benchmarking Alliance helps us break down the bigger picture: the urgent necessity of nature-based solutions, why policy and business must unite, and how collaboration defeats competition in the fight against climate change.

Listen now: https://lnk.to/Forces-For-Good-Seaweed

TRANSCRIPT: Episode 4 — How can seaweed help us rethink the value of nature?

This is Forces For Good, a podcast from B Lab, the nonprofit network powering the global B Corp movement. I’m your host Irving Chan-Gomez. Forces For Good takes a hard look at how businesses are helping to solve the biggest social and environmental challenges of our time. 

You're in the middle of the London Marathon. You're struggling and desperately need something to drink to keep you going. 

 Up ahead you see a much needed aid station but what you don't see is the usual sea of plastic cups and bottles littering the ground. Instead, you see gloved volunteers offering you a bubble filled with water or sports drink. 

You take the bubble, bite it and drink the contents. The hydration gives you the boost you need to finish your race! 

Can you show us what it's like to go through, drink the water from, uh, uh, bubble?

Hoa: So this an, so it's a sea membrane and I think the liquid in here is, uh, lime cordial. Um, and yeah, you eat it just like a cherry tomato, so pop it in your mouth.

That was Hoa Doan, Head of Impact and Sustainability at Notpla - a UK based B Corp. She’s demonstrating what it’s like to drink from the waste free seaweed bubbles that they produce.  They call them Ooho (oh ! jo). At just one event - the 2019 London marathon- 200,000 plastic bottles were replaced by Ooho. 

Hoa: We've been around for, um, around seven years and we, based in Hackney Week London, uh, our mission is to make packaging disappear. We do that by, uh, looking at nature as our inspiration, so looking at new materials, uh, mainly seaweed, um, to see how they can replace plastic as a material for packaging.

And, uh, I'm sure you and all of the listeners are very much aware of the plastic pollution crisis that we are currently having and we focus on, especially in single use. Uh, plastic because we know that they are normally very small items. Uh, not many actually get collected or recycled, and they are one of the main reasons for a lot of the, uh, plastic we find in the environment.

And when we look at nature, we see an orange peel, for example. It functions as a packaging, but it also disappears not long after use. So we aspire to create packaging used, um, on a daily basis, but also follow that same, uh, ethos as well of packaging that doesn't harm the planet and made from sustainable [00:03:00] materials.

Ooho doesn't just replace water bottles. Imagine it as condiment packets, candy wrappers, or energy gels. Ooho started Notpla and the seaweed packaging revolution. 

Hoa: So actually our founder Rodrigo, met at Imperial when they were doing a master degree in innovations and design and past. As part of their coursework, they were assigned to look at packaging and how we can redesign packaging, and that's where they, um, they started looking at different, uh, ways that things are being packaged, and they came across fake kavia.

Which is actually, uh, the same as an ojo. So it is, uh, seaweed membranes filled with fish flavor water, and that's worth the idea around. Or actually you can, um, you can mix this bubble. You just need to make it bigger. Then this can perform as a packaging. So, uh, that's how they started and that's how they really look into seaweed as a material.

And we, yeah, we were the first company to actually, uh, start, uh, applying seaweed to create different formats of packaging with it. But now I think there's, there's a lot of other startups and companies who also, um, look at the same things as well. And a few of them are members of the natural polymers group.

Ooho was just the start. Seaweed is an amazing plant and natural resource that's under utilized. 

Hoa: So seaweed has, uh, sometimes been described as our underwater forest, actually there's still a lot that we don't know about seaweed. So there's about 12,000 species of seaweed out there. Um, and, uh, we use the same CWE to describe actually the vastly um, uh, ecosystem and, and a lot of, um.

Um, uh, of the materials that, uh, we, we still don't know. And one of the greatest things about seaweed is actually it's, um, in our everyday life. Um, you and I probably have consumed seaweed without knowing, um, throughout the day. So seaweed is in toothpaste, in face cream, in a lot of our food products. From ice cream to beer to chicken nuggets, for example.

And that's, that is why we think that it is, uh, amazing materials that, um, we could also turn into packaging as well. And, um, and actually quite a few of our packaging has an edible aspect to it. So there is not even any packaging at the end. And, uh, one of the amazing things about seaweed is also that it grows incredibly.

Quickly, some seaweed can grow as quickly as, uh, a meter a day. And, um, given that it's also widely available in countries like the uk but also in France, Spain, Indonesia, China. Um, there's a lot of potential, uh, for it to not only replace, uh, packaging, but I know other people are also looking at seaweed as, uh, for its carbon sequestration ability.

Uh, we could grow seaweed as we are planting trees at the moment, uh, to sequester carbon. Um, and, uh, some of the nice things about seaweed is that, um, yeah, you can, it's either. Grown naturally or in terms of sea farming, you can also, um, grow it underwater without requiring any land or fertilizer or fresh water.

Um, and I know that there's a lot of questions around how we can use our resources a lot better, and, um, and I think CWE can provide a lot of the answers to some of the resources that we need. On some on, yeah. A lot of the applications that a lot of innovators are looking at at the moment.

Let's check out some of the other applications for Notpla products. 

Instead of participating in a sport we're spectators now. We're getting ready for a rugby match at Allianz Stadium in London. Your mates have sent you on a beer run for wayyy more beers than you have hands. Luckily, the bartender hands you 4 beers suspended from a carrier that looks like cardboard. Spoiler alert - it's not made of cardboard. It's made of seaweed.

That's why when beer sloshes out of the cup and onto the carrier getting it wet, it doesn't fold and crumple. In just a trial run, 100,000 pieces of plastic were replaced at the massive rugby stadium.

 From sandwich containers to takeout boxes, food service items that look like cardboard are often coated in plastic. That means they'll stay in landfills for longer, and break down into the microplastics that are currently found in drinking water, fish, plants and even us.

Notpla's seaweed products break down in a matter of weeks. That includes their replacements for hard plastic cutlery like forks, knives and spoons.

Hoa: So the most beautiful thing about these materials is that we already removed the use of plastic at the beginning. It almost doesn't really matter where this goes. We have tested our spoons in the woolery where we have seen that, um, yeah, it's, uh, it disappears within a few weeks. Um, and also the fact that, um.

There's no plastic. So if you were to put all these materials into general waste, for example, it will start to disintegrate as well. Whereas for, uh, materials like plastic, you will find it up to 500 years, maybe even a thousand years. You've seen many plastic wrappers that, um, uh, that's yeah, still, still exist for maybe 15 years later.

And this is definitely not gonna happen with a Nola Spoon.

Plastic starts its life as small pellets that can be put into a machine and molded into whatever shape the manufacturer wants. Notpla makes seaweed pellets that are nearly identical. They could be fed into the same machines and replace plastic pellets with little added cost. Hoa: I think that plastic cutlery could be made obsolete over the next, uh, three years or so. I think there has been a lot of innovations and work, uh, in the sectors and within Nola ourself as well. Um, so yeah, I think we are looking at the future.

There's just consumer education and of course the infamous big oil preventing Notpla from catching on. 

Hoa: So it's, uh, the statistics is, is quite overwhelming. I think. Uh, each year we produce about 430 million tons of plastic. And about half of that is for single use, mainly for packaging. So we know that NOLA alone, um, is, is not gonna be the, the only solution we will need to work with other partners. And this is required.

As mentioned again, system change, right? We, um, uh, all of the packaging we use as the end consumer is all. Coming from or being produced by someone. And that's why we require the entire supply chain from the brand that is making the, um, uh, the products to be packaged to the packaging producer, to policymakers as well.

We all need to agree on the fact that using plastic for single use applications is an issue and we should prioritize on how to fix that. And one of the solutions is using different materials and better materials for both human health, but also for the environment and the planet as well.

So, what kind of policy change would it take for a nature based solution to replace plastic?

Hoa: Uh, uh, packaging, plastic packaging, all the four points, uh, all the four 30 million tons that we talked about previously. They all use palettes like this. Um, and we want to be, to help incentivize them to actually switch to the natural palettes instead of plastic. And I think there's several ways of doing that.

Um, one is to, um, I guess ban plastic products. And we've already seen that with, uh, a few single-use plastic packaging like cuties, uh, plastic bags, um, uh, plastic containers as well. Um, but then there's, there's. Also the gap between the cost of plastic, which has been, um, yeah, is a large industry and it's often subsidized as well.

Whereas the materials that we are currently using are food grade materials, which are taxed differently. Um, so yeah, a lot of our core for change is that we need to close the gap and, um, really help to provide incentives, um, through things like. EPR. So extended producer, uh, responsibility is one of the, uh, policy that's being introduced across the world now to help design more incentive for packaging producers to look at better materials, more recyclable materials, um, to replace plastic, plastic films and un-recyclable materials as well.

Implementing nature-based solutions is going to take buy-in from both new and established companies, small companies and large ones, consumers and policy makers. That's where NGOs, coalitions, and non profits can step in to bring people together. 

Bosco Lliso is Nature Research Lead at The World Benchmarking Alliance. 

Bosco: So I work in the World Benchmarking Alliance, WBA, for short, and the organization looks at the 2000 most influential companies and how they impact. People and planet. And we do that through different lenses, through a social lens, a digital lens, a financial lens. I work in the nature team. Um, and so what we do is analyze how hundreds of companies value nature, whether they have in place the right governance structures to improve their environmental performance, whether they're measuring the things they need to measure and setting the targets they need to set.

Bosco has worked in multiple areas of the climate sector. At WBA he pushes the private sector to measure their impact and adopt solutions that are good for nature and people. He says this is where he feels he’s had the biggest impact. 

Bosco: Um, and after seven years in academia, I became slightly disenchanted with being a little too far away from where the rubber hits the road. Uh, it felt like a lot of the research I was doing was directed at other researchers rather than at practitioners.

And it definitely required me. Doing a bit of a mind shift where I went from seeing the private sector as this big, bad bogeyman, uh, as now sort of seeing them as an inevitable part of the solution.

So it's, I think previously I was working from a different direction looking at what was. What is the perfect state we want to get to sort of, what is a natural positive economy and trying to work back and realizing how far away we are from that perfect state. Whereas now I'm almost taking the opposite and seeing where we are now and what is the next small step we can take?

How do we work with companies that are currently doing a lot of things? And not the best way and have a lot of room for improvement. How can we sort of nudge them in the right direction to get to that other state? Uh, and I think both of those are necessary. Um, I've just found more satisfaction working on sort of this end of the aisle.

Here's why small changes can have a huge impact if they're enacted on a large scale. 

Bosco: So we, the, the term we use to refer to these companies are, are keystone companies, which is a concept borrowed from, from ecology. And it's this idea that a small set of companies can have a disproportionately large. Impact on ecosystems, on economies, on value chains, uh, relative to their small number. Uh, in the same way sort of a keystone species.

So like a, a beaver is just one animal that due to ecological processes, has a massive impact on the ecosystem by building dams, uh, well, a keystone company, depending on how it acts. It will set a standard for other companies to follow. And the idea is that a small number of companies has an outsized impact on the economy beyond the economy.

Think of Notpla. 200,000 pieces of plastic were kept out of a landfill because one large event made a single switch from plastic to seaweed.

Or think of the 80,000 seater Allianz (Ah - lEE -ANZ) stadium. In a single rugby season, up to 400,000 pieces of plastic could be kept out of landfills just by switching out a drink holder! Bosco is talking about incremental changes at an even larger scale than this. 

Bosco: We see the fossil fuel sector as this boogeyman. And so obviously changing the solar farms and, and windmills is seen sort of as good in and of itself. But then these also have really big impacts on, on land use change and areas that maybe used to be grasslands or even agriculture.

Are then changed to these sorts of deserts of solar panels, and that has an environmental impact in and of itself. So I think nature-based solutions can be more about selecting the right site and designing, uh, projects following maybe more of a, the, the mitigation hierarchy. So this idea of we have to avoid damage and then what you can't avoid, you minimize, and where you can't minimize it, you restore.

Uh, and, and we have to steer projects away from critical habitats or, or try to restore areas that were previously disturbed already. There's a company called Orid, which is a Danish energy company, and they're pioneering right now creating these artificial reefs around their offshore wind turbines in the North Sea to try and boost marine biodiversity.

So in this sense, they're not. Uh, generating more energy with the reefs, but they're making sure that by putting these really large turbines offshore, they're actually having a positive impact on nature. So I don't see nature-based solutions as sort of the silver bullet. Uh, it's just part of the menu of things that companies, uh, need to do to become more sustainable.

We've said it before and we'll keep shouting it from the rooftops. Protecting nature and natural resources is good for both business and the environment. But if you don't believe me, I'll let Bosco say it… 

Bosco: caring for nature is not an altruistic thing that they need to do, sort of out of the goodness of their heart. This is something that they need to do because being environmentally sustainable is being economically sustainable in the long run. Uh, and to do that, we have a series of indicators where we'll see whether a company's integrating the right governance structures.

So, for example, do their. Directors have part of their bonuses linked to the environmental performance of a company and not just the bottom line. Economically, we look at whether they're assessing and setting targets, uh, related to their biggest impact drivers. So are they, uh, s measuring how much water they're using in different water basins, and then setting targets that are.

Relevant to each of the water basins they operate in. Do they disclose the amount of air pollution and greenhouse gases that they emit? Uh, are they tracking progress? And then, like I mentioned, we look at more procedural targets for their social impact. Are they engaging the relevant stakeholders? Do we have commitments to re uh, respect the rights of indigenous communities?

Um, and something we found is that. Companies are getting better. They're still a long way to go, but they're getting better at measuring their, what we call their impact drivers, how much water they use, how much pollution, pollution, pollution do they, uh, emit. But where we still have a massive gap is in them measuring the impact of that on nature.

There's more to environmental stewardship than meets the eye. Earlier, Bosco mentioned that even projects intended to create a positive environmental impact - like renewable energy generation - can have unintended negative environmental impacts.

A company needs to address its impact holistically. Let’s look at the Environmental Stewardship & Circularity or ESC Impact Topic. A core requirement is the assessment of actual and potential negative impacts in the company’s operations and value chain. 

This helps define a strategy that should follow the mitigation hierarchy: avoid, reduce, restore & regenerate, and transform. 

In addition, the ESC Impact Topic also requires larger companies to have a dedicated biodiversity transition plan.  Biodiversity is gaining momentum but is still an area that doesn't get the necessary attention… 

Bosco: There's still a, a, a lack of, at least on the biodiversity side, a very concrete guidance. And I think we're seeing a lot of foot dragging because companies don't want to be the first movers or maybe start moving in a direction, and then the legislation changes a couple years later. So compared to climate change, which is much more.

Mature topic, biodiversity, still a bit of the Wild West, and I think organizations like WBA, the organization I work for, part of our role is not only to pressure companies to get better by holding up this mirror, which I mentioned before, but it's also about.

Creating forums for companies to learn from each other, and companies that have started moving in a certain direction can get together and almost form pre-competitive, uh, initiatives because a lot of these challenges can't be solved by a single company. If you're operating in a watershed and you consume less water, then that just means there's more water for other companies to use.

It might be that ultimately they extract the water that you're not doing. And so certain problems can only really be solved by collaborating and working together. And I think we need to be able to move away from having this competitive mindset at every stage. There's some challenges in fisheries.

This is very obvious, where maintaining a certain level, a certain stock of fish to reproduce and to have a resilient population requires all of the actors to get. Together and agree on certain practices. And so I think that's probably where, where we're headed or or, or something without, which will be very difficult to actually see improvements.

Take seafood companies for example. If one company makes the intentional choice not to overfish, that doesn't mean another company won't come along and catch the fish they left in the water.

Single companies can break barriers and lead the way but they need back up to magnify their impact.

B Lab’s Government Affairs and Collective Action Impact Topic requires B Corps to look beyond their four walls and drive change at scale. Businesses can choose from a number of ways to do that. For example, advocacy, partnerships, investments in research, and coalitions. 

Notpla has a 'Futures Lab' that is ready for partnerships in all types of industries that consume plastics. Collective action and advocacy is how we scale our impact. Consumers can and should push for greener products and options but Bosco reminds us this has to happen on the largest scale possible. 

Bosco:  So I, I am always hesitant of putting too much of the, of the burden on the consumer. I'm much more of a believer that we just shouldn't have. Access to very unsustainable alternatives. You know, if, if, if everything in the supermarket is sustainable, then you don't need to be scrutinizing everything. And so personally, I do think a lot more of the burden lies on policymakers and on the companies themselves.

You know, we might not be able to keep consuming things as cheaply as we have until now, because ultimately when you're not paying for something someone else might be, and that might be somewhere down the value chain where people are either involved in modern slavery or living in, or working in very inhumane conditions, or where the price.

The environment is basically hidden and that's why something costs two euros instead of 10. Um, so I think just having that awareness that if something is incredibly cheap, it might just be that part of the cost is hidden.

If you'd like to learn more about B Corps and purpose driven companies visit BCorporation.net. And listen to the rest of our season! Please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your ratings and reviews help Forces for Good reach new audiences, so we thank you for your support.

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The views and opinions expressed are those of the interviewees and do not reflect the positions or opinions of the producers or any affiliated organizations.

The podcast was brought to you by B lab. Special thanks to Sherri Jordan for coordination. Forces for Good is produced by Hueman Group Media. 

I’m your host, Irving Chan-Gomez. Thanks for listening. And I look forward to catching you in the next episode!