B Lab Forces For Good Podcast — Episode 9: How do I make my voice heard at work?
“Sometimes all it takes is a voice—one voice that becomes a hundred, then a thousand…” That's a line from Newsies, a story about young workers demanding to be seen and heard. A fictional tale, yes, but also a real and ongoing struggle. In this episode of Forces For Good, we explore what that struggle looks like today.
Jenny Holdcroft from The Shift Project shares why collective bargaining is essential to human rights at work, and Antoine Heuty from B Corp Ulula explains how his platform gives workers the ability to report abuses and raise concerns—directly, safely, and globally.
Listen now to explore:
How unions can drive collaboration—not just disruption
Why worker voice is essential to fair, resilient supply chains
The role of tech in scaling transparency across borders
Tune in to Forces For Good to reimagine what the future of work can look like: https://lnk.to/forces-for-good-worker-voice
TRANSCRIPT: Season 3 — Episode 9: How do I make my voice heard at work? This is Forces For Good, a podcast from B Lab, the nonprofit network powering the global B Corp movement. I’m your host Irving Chan-Gomez.
Forces For Good takes a hard look at how businesses are helping to solve the biggest social and environmental challenges of our time.
We're excited to be back with season 3 to dive deep into what makes a good job. Have you ever seen the musical film Newsies? It's ok if you haven't. I'll give you a quick summary.
The year is 1899. Boys as young as 12 or 13 sell newspapers on the street in New York to earn money. When it's announced that their wages are being cut by the wealthy newspaper owners they decide to go on strike. After two weeks [and a few musical numbers] the boys prevail and achieve better wages.
The true story of the 1899 Newsboys Strike is similar but it gets one veeery important fact wrong. Striking was not a novel thing at this time or for these workers. Collective bargaining in some form has made workplaces safer, improved working conditions and reduced child labor since antiquity. In the words of the character Bryan Denton from Newsies "Sometimes all it takes is a voice, one voice that becomes a hundred, then a thousand, unless it's silenced." The ability for employees to speak up is critical to creating a system that is fair, representative and works for all.
Jenny Holdcroft is Deputy Director of Business Engagement at the Shift Project. They work globally to champion human rights in business.
Jenny: When I was a young worker and I didn't know much about unions at all. I'd heard of them, but, you know, thought they were just things that went out on strike. But then I got involved in union in Australia And it was a union that had a lot of women leaders, which was quite unusual then and now. And the women were very supportive of me. And, uh, I was able to get involved. They offered me training, but also, uh, what unions gave to me was, uh, an outlet for my frustrations about lack of fairness. Um, As a young woman, um, I didn't feel that I had much power in situations.
Now Jenny has seen the power of unions first hand. And she's a huge advocate!
Jenny: Um, so things would often feel like they were unfair, but I would have no way of resolving that. Whereas with the union, there were structures, there were processes. So even those without power were given the opportunity to sit down and address the injustices in a, in a reasonable way. I think that's the thing about trade unions that people don't often see, is that they are a way of resolving conflict. They're not the cause of conflict, um, conflict will exist, but trade unions give you that structure to actually be able to hear different opinions and reach consensus decision making.
The ability and space to speak up and stand up for yourself create the foundations for a 'good job.'
Jenny: When I came into this as a young woman, you know, if I stood up for my own rights on my own, uh, it would be very difficult. And in fact, I obviously wouldn't do that because I would feel too intimidated and I'd feel too vulnerable to do that. So unions give that protection, but in a very codified way.
Um, and you know, the fact that unions are regulated, I think often gets overlooked. Um, we as a society have decided that the most effective way for employees to have a voice that is at least, um, maybe not on the same level as an employer, but at least able to challenge employer decisions. There needs to be a structure of representation and rights that support that. Otherwise it's all too easy for employer prerogative to just rule the day. And then we're back to, you know, a time prior to trade unions.
A common misconception is that a union’s only tactic is to go on strike. We tend to hear the most about unions when workers are striking. We think of auto workers striking in Detroit, railway strikes across France and the UK, Starbucks and Amazon closing down whole stores and warehouses to prevent employees from unionizing.
Jenny: It’s a culmination of many things over time. Firstly, that, yeah, that prejudice and that, uh, only ever seeing news about trade unions when they're on strike and people are being inconvenienced and this, this narrative that unions are militants. I mean, that's a tiny part of what unions do. The other part of the major part of what unions do is behind closed doors. Because it is about reaching agreements. It's not about taking to the streets and shouting. It's all of the quiet work that goes on every single day, sitting down, solving problems, uh, working with employers to find solutions that work for members and that work for businesses as well. And that's what you simply don't see. But I think the people, working people, have been sold a bit of a lie over the last couple of years. And I think that's starting to turn around. And the lie is that, you know, you don't need a union. Um, unions are just for people who can't stand up for themselves.
Unions aren't the only approach we're talking about today. Workers should be able to voice their needs and concerns in a variety of different contexts. That's where Antoine Heuty comes in.
Antoine: If you think of Nigeria, if you think of Peru, they have a lot of, you know, uh, natural resources. But, uh, somehow they are not able to really transform that into sustainable development.
And as I was, you know, making that case that, okay, you should be more transparent and, and really use the money more wisely. I realized that, you know, I felt a little bit like the white man preaching, uh, in a sense you can, you can try to make policy change and, and, and effect change by, you know, being more transparent.
But at the end of the day, it really felt to me that sustainable change came, comes from the people on the ground, right? And so rather than, than being that kind of white man preaching, you know, something to, to different committees. I decided to create a tool that, you know, would, you know, be a way to get more agency, uh, to workers and communities around the world starting in mining.
And thus Ulula was born. Ulula is a B Corp that gives workers the ability to communicate with their employer anonymously. It can be used to make complaints about working hours or conditions in real time. You might think why do we need a new platform to simply lodge complaints. But supply chains in the 21st century are global. Employers that want to be a Force for Good have to have a way to ensure that workers around the world are being treated fairly by every contractor, warehouse manager or factory foreman.
Antoine: I think a useful starting point is, is to, to remind everyone that there are about 50 million people, five zero living in conditions of modern slavery today, including 28 million in forced labor, right? So that's massive. That's. Higher than any point in in history, right? So what that means is, you know nobody in your audience, nobody in the people that I know want to consume goods that are made with child labor or false labor.
Without doubt yet we are all consuming goods that at some point in the supply chains have minerals that, you know, probably have children involved with, or palm oil that also may be tainted or maybe wearing clothes that also have cotton, you know, that are, are, uh, made with, with, uh, slave labor. So it's, it's very difficult to avoid.
And at the moment it still is very difficult to, to find tools that enable effective monitoring of supply chain. So despite, you know, the, the, the clear notion that we don't want to have false labor tainting our global supply chains, this is still widespread.
At this point almost every worker has a cell phone. And what is a phone but the best way to communicate your needs!
Antoine: The current tools to monitor supply chains are generally not able to accomplish, you know, what we need to already, I mean, identify, prevent, and then, uh, you know, eradicate fall asleep. By all means is contributing, but not, you know, a silver bullet to that.
But why, what's the contribution is that by reaching people directly through mobile phones, we're able to reach much larger number of people on a much more continuous basis. So they can, we can understand their lived experience. We can understand what's the experience of a Bangladeshi. Worker, you know, in the industrial zones of Daca, in Bangladesh, we can understand what are the working conditions of migrant workers on construction sites in the US or in, in the Gulf. So that is really the, the key thing, which technology enables in a way that's safe, that, you know, can work across languages, across geographies. And that's, that's what really has, has been, uh, you know, motivating and, and pushing us to, to do the job that, that we do. 'cause the, the status quo is either you just, you know, sign a, you know, a paper that says everything is fine.
So, what does Ulula look like in action? It's time for an example.
Antoine: So we see that in, in, in, you know, in the service that we do. We certainly see that in the thousands of grievances that we've, we've dealt, and for instance, we have worked on, uh, uh, on palm oil plantations in Malaysia, where we were working with, you know, probably about 20,000, uh, workers.
And in a space of less than a year, we received about 4,000 grievances. 80% of which were addressed and led to migrant worker fees. So basically that, what that means is, you know, lots of the workers are migrants and a lot of these workers have to pay to get their jobs. And that is, you know, uh, something that can lead to debt bondage and, and a number of, of perverse outcomes.
And it's also illegal in, in a, you know, uh, in a number of, of, uh, jurisdictions. And that led to the reimbursements of millions of dollars in, in, in recruitment fees. So you go, you go from a picture where you are at the, on the verge of, you know, modern slavery to a point where you are getting reimbursed the fees that you've, you've paid to recruiters.
And as a result, you, you can, you know, enjoy the most basic freedoms, but they are essential to leave, you know, to have a decent job. So. The benefits I think are there and and obviously technology is just a means to an end. I mean, right. I mean you also have to be very careful in, in, in this is that what we enable is a better connection among, within the supply chain between employers, buyers, traders, et cetera, different deals in the supply chain.
By giving that level of transparency down to the workers, uh, and enabling to also quantify the, the impacts. And measure the impacts over time. But at the end of the day, we're non substitute for companies, you know, taking responsibility for what is what we find employers taking action work worker representatives, also advocating on behalf of their, their peers, right?
Let’s hear from Jenny again to get more context on supply chains. Shift works globally to promote the UN’s Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights. One of their current projects is completely focused on living wage reporting. The goal is to make sure living wages are paid at all points in the global supply chain. The project is to build a standardized accounting model for wage reporting. This would mean comparability, transparency and accountability.
Jenny: Most of the problem for the companies that we're working with is in the supply chains, uh, when companies, I mean, that's not to say that they're not issues among their own workforce that sometimes comes as a bit of a surprise to companies to find, but by and large, um, the issue is much more in the supply chains in terms of scale, but also in terms of the, the, the countries that they're sourcing from and, and let's be honest, be real about this.
This is the problem that Antoine was telling us about. A larger company may provide a living wage and reporting structures to its employees. In fact, in some countries it is required to. But its smaller suppliers and other affiliates abroad may not have the same requirements.
Jenny: We know that a lot of sourcing strategies have been based on, uh, low-cost production countries. So why are they low-cost? They're low cost because, you know, among other reasons, uh, wages are very low, and that's what can tend to keep wages low because we're in this sort of competitive situation where companies.
Um, where governments have kept minimum wages at a low level so that they don't impact their competitiveness in global value chains, uh, vis-à-vis, uh, neighboring, um, competing countries. So that all added up together has perpetuated a bit of a race to the bottom in terms of wages. So ultimately, I'm hoping that, you know, all companies will work on this, not just, you know, the Western based lead companies who have the supply chain, because these arguments about improving wages also apply to all sorts of, uh, companies in all sorts of parts of the world, uh, contributing to their local economies and growing those and growing their workforce and investing in their workforce.
So the arguments still apply, but at this stage, um, we are very much looking at the, the big multinational companies and trying to understand where the risks of what low wages exist. in their supply chains. And that might mean looking at particular countries where, for example, minimum wages are way lower than estimates of living wages.
According to Jenny the state of 'worker voice' globally cannot be summed up in a few words. But in some areas there's been encouraging progress.
Jenny: I think that the whole focus on human rights from a business perspective is very encouraging.
Um, they've always been lead companies that recognize that doing good business is reliant on good people. respecting human rights, but that has not spread as far as it needs to. Hence, the introduction of mandatory due diligence legislation to try to bring, uh, the other companies on board with that.
In other areas, we still have a long way to go. Our new standards at B Lab acknowledge this. B Corps are required to monitor their supply chain and take action to prevent negative human rights impacts!
Jenny: Unfortunately, you know, there will always be the ones who just see minimum compliance who don't really, uh, understand the, uh, importance of it. And we'll, we'll free ride off the efforts of others. Hence, the need, unfortunately, for more legislation to try to make sure that the conditions for doing business are fair to everybody. Um, you know, when you've got companies that are not investing in, uh, supporting workers and respecting human rights, then that unfortunately can be a competitive disadvantage, uh, when you've got others who are reducing costs by doing it the cheap and dirty way.
And that's something that, uh, needs to be addressed as well.
Perhaps one way to address this is to make clear to companies and employers that listening to your workforce is a business imperative. (2)
Antoine: If you're able to have a higher number of your workers return because they feel that's a good workplace for me, that pays a, you know, a decent salary.
I'm treated, you know, without discrimination, et cetera. Then that's very important, you know, plus on your, your bottom line benefit on your bottom line because you don't have to recruit, you have higher productivity, and so on. So the benefits to the employers are very, um, uh, important.
The second one that is also, uh, very clear is that being able to demonstrate your, you know, um, record to your buyers and to certain markets is also something that is. Uh, ensuring that you can access these, you know, Europe, us, and other, other parts of the world because there are a number of regulation that prevents the import of goods made by forced labor.
Right? Um, we are seeing, I think, a bit of a backlash on ESG, but nobody is, is pushing back against, you know, uh, the regulations that say that you should not, uh, have goods before labor and child labor. So it's basically. You know, doing that is a license to continue doing business with some of your premium customers and premium customer.
Now if you go further up in the supply chain, um, the rationale is that, you know, you are also dependent on those, uh, supply chains. I mean to make sure that you are not tainted in, you know, further up in the transformation and the retail of those. Because very, very often they think you haven't heard about a supplier that is, you know, making, you know, the, the, the cotton fibers.
But you would hear about the, you know, the, the major textile and apparel brands that are, you know, selling you the t-shirts or whatever. The sneakers that you, you are, you're, you're buying. So they are, to create resident supply chains, you need to have, you know, suppliers that are not just doing.
You know, good work in terms of the quality and timeliness of the product, but they need to be made in a way that is going to be consistent enough for you to continue doing business.
The bottom line here is that a good job is one where you are heard and valued. Workers should be treated as equals by their employers. If you're listening right now and don't feel like you have a voice, please know you have rights and recourse. We have some information and links in our show notes that can help.
If you’d like to learn more about B Corps and purpose-driven companies, visit BCorporation.net. Subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your support helps Forces for Good reach new audiences.
For more ways to engage, follow us on social media.
The views and opinions expressed are those of the interviewees and do not reflect the positions or opinions of the producers or any affiliated organizations.
This podcast was brought to you by B Lab in partnership with The Gates Foundation. Special thanks to Sherri Jordan for coordination. Forces For Good is produced by Hueman Group Media.
I’m your host, Irving Chan-Gomez. Thanks for listening, and see you next time